Katie Welcome to from the ground up a podcast by the UK Youth Climate Coalition. This is a podcast by and for young people who are passionate about climate justice and want to make a difference. In this episode, I'm Katie and I'm joined by some special guests from the UKYCC Systems Change Team for a group discussion about how alternative approaches to economics can help us to tackle climate change.I'm quite excited for this episode because it's a topic that I'm not particularly clued up on. I know a little bit about it. But I've always found economics a bit of a scary subject. So excited to learn more today. And because it's apparently quite important people tell me, so without further ado I'm going to introduce our guests Grace and Aliyah would you like to introduce yourselves. Grace Yeah I can go. It's so exciting to be here.Yeah I in Grace I'm 24 I'm not 24 I'm 23. Why did I say I was 24 I'm 23. I'm part of the Systems change working group for UKYCC and yeah I've been part of the team and working on this new campaign 'It's Just Economics'. Aliyah And hi everyone, I'm Aliyah. I mean I'm 26 but I feel 27 Grace so maybe that's why. I'm part of the system change working group at UKYCC. Yes, and maybe also I'm a systems change campaigner. We can say that. Grace I Love that. Maybe that should be our new title: systems change economics campaigners. Katie And I like that, I like that. I also I think that the pandemic robbed a lot of us of of some of our twenty s because I don't feel 27, I'm definitely still 25 right? Grace Maybe the rules should just be we are whatever age we want to be in this episode. Katie Yeah, yeah I like that. Just so we can get to know you both a bit better. How did you get involved in activism and yeah, what drew you to the climate movement particularly? Aliyah That's such a good question. I don't know and the thing for me is I don't know I don't even remember when I started getting interested in like environmental issues. I was definitely interested in activism before I knew it was called activism like you know when you get that feeling you see a problem or some type of social injustice and you're like 'oh my gosh we need to do something guys like we should do something' and then I started to realize not everyone feels that way. You know and then when I was maybe a teenager I started volunteering in different places. Just like trying to you know make the world better in whatever way. And then after I had my first job I realized that you can actually get a job doing some type of stuff that's aiming to improve the world and I think when I worked at my first environmental charity that's when it was really cemented in my head that yeah I am passionate about doing something towards solving environmental issues. Um, but yeah I feel like I've always been a activist at heart. Katie And Grace? Grace Yeah, I think similar to Aliyah. I think it's quite hard to pin down like 1 specific moment. I think maybe partly like just my upbringing and stuff I think I was um yeah I've been quite aware from being quite young of sort of social and environmental issues but I think what's been interesting over time is moving from quite a individual 'What can I do?' mindset, say whether that was I didn't know I'm over going around like our house growing up and switching off all the lights which really annoyed all my family because I was like 'Oh I don't want to like waste any electricity because of the climate'. Whereas I think the journey that I have been on as I've got older is thinking a bit more about the systems and the structures that are producing the climate crisis and other injustices. And then trying to kind of draw that link between those systems and me as the individual and the community that I'm in. Um, so yeah, I guess that's been kind of my journey with activism. Katie So you've touched on it a little bit but um I think it' would be good to introduce the systems change team and what you guys do. So yeah, what does the UKYCC systems change team get up to? Grace Yeah, so systems change is 1 of the various working groups within UKYCC and and what we do fall is under kind of 3 main areas or ideas. So as a working group we aim to first of all, shift the narrative. So that's about amplifying radical and alternative visions of the future through creativity and collaboration. The second thing we're aiming to do is to shift the power. So thinking about who is responsible for climate injustices and holding those people to account, those people, those organizations and demanding climate justice from the Uk government, UK-based corporations. So this is focused around kind of national campaigns and policy advocacy. But the third thing we aim to do is be part of something bigger. So this is about being part of a movement of movements for systems change and climate justice. Linking up with other organizations and movements building solidarity, connections and I guess um, yeah, creating or helping to contribute to this culture of care and support and solidarity within the climate movement but also with other activist groups across the whole kind of social justice space. Katie Cool. Thank you. That's a good summary and because I've never been in this team as well useful for me. Um, cool. Okay, so today we are here to talk about your work in the economics space. Um, so I guess maybe just start with a few sort of like background type questions. Um, so yeah, very back to basics like why do we need to think about economics in the context of climate change? because I feel like it's one that took me a while to realize that we needed to think about. Aliyah Yeah, um, it's so important because I mean the more I learn about climate change the more I started to think that our economic system is one of the main reasons, if not the main reason, why we're experiencing not only climate change but like all of the ecological crises that we're facing I think can somehow be linked back to capitalism and the way like that runs. I mean just to give an example one of the main characteristics of capitalism is that it's a pursuit of profit and growth over anything else, so over people over other life forms, over the planet. It's a pursuit of profit and growth right? So obviously even hearing that you're thinking 'Oh Okay, that doesn't sound good because like what about the people and what about the the life and what about you know? And I think it's literally that like big corporations and people who are powerful and rich do loads of stuff and it harms us, and harms the planet, so they can make money. Um, yeah, so it's like vital. You have to talk about economics when you're talking about climate change I think. Grace Um, yeah, absolutely and I think you know when we're working for climate Justice in our climate activism I think it's really important to understand kind of the drivers of of what we're seeing happening and yeah the climate breakdown that we're seeing happening and yeah, Aliyah as you said like this profit machine really that is capitalism is a massive driver of rising emissions and increased fossil fuel use and because we're in particular. Well, so especially within the west, but we're really in a kind of a global capitalist system and don't want to be reductive and kind of um, say that it's necessarily all encompassing but Capitalism is a really dominant paradigm in our world. Um, and so that pursuit of profit and the need for more consumption and greater production, use up of natural resources is huge and obviously that's going to have kind of environmental fallout. And yeah, which I think is just something which we have to be aware of when we're thinking about climate change because um, you know, the world would look very different if we weren't in a capitalist economic system as will probably come to discuss in a little bit but I don't want to jump the gun with that. Katie So yeah, thanks. Um, yeah I think to me the thing is like so all of our economics is based on like we need economies to grow right? Otherwise society, like bad things happen in society. But if we always need to grow that surely means we need to be buying more and more stuff and there's only so much stuff the world can give us. Aliyah I Yeah literally and it's like we're getting close guys Grace Yeah, 100% and you know, um, there have been like economistt, like some more kind of radical economists who've been thinking about this for really long time. Um, and who have put their finger on this idea of like green growth. It's a bit of a myth. Like we can't really have sustainable development. We can't really have green growth because even the whole concept of growth on a finite planet, is a little bit like, it doesn't really add up. Um, so there was um, a guy called James O'connor who like came up with this idea of like the contradictions of capitalism and his second contradiction of capitalism talks about this idea that in order to sort of survive, capitalism there always needs to be growth and production always needs to be expanding. And so that requires loads of kind of inputs and resources and raw materials and that's needed for capitalism to survive but the more it does that the more those resources are depleted and you know the environment is degraded and so then that prohibits capitalism from expanding and so just inherently like it doesn't work. Um, it doesn't. It contradicts itself. Aliyah Um, yeah, um, yeah I think thats such a good point. And that's another thing about Capitalism - It doesn't work for the majority of people. It only works for like rich people who are thriving because of capitalism. So if it's not working for the planet, it's not working for the majority of people and it's causing so much harm. You know it needs to be changed. So Google defines capitalism as an economic and political system in which a country trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit. So the main thing, the main 2 things there are: It's a system that is focused on profit or growth and also um, it's a system that encourages trade and the means of production which could be factories and businesses to be owned by private individuals, so not owned by the government owned by like private, just an individual person you know. Grace And I guess it's worth putting a disclaimer here as well that like something like capitalism is like huge and complicated and nuanced and um, like we know that we're kind of limited in this discussion. That we kind of have to simplify a little bit and we also kind of fully put our hands up and say you know, 'We're like really at the beginning of this journey with exploring you know, alternative economics and understanding how this all works.' So um, yeah, bear with us on our kind of where we find things down or and yeah, where kind of um, you know where we're coming from at things from like 1 specific angle because yeah, we're really kind of at the beginning of this journey and really just curious to learn more. Um, yes I think that's just worth saying as well that I at least kind of hold my hands up and say like I'm not an expert on this stuff. But I'm curious and I think it's important and like we say I think mainstream economics and economists have done a really good job at making things confusing and opaque and seem inaccessible. As you said Katie like I think at the start so you know how do we make things, begin to kind of untangle things and make it more accessible so um, it feels less overwhelming and complicated. So yeah, just think it's worth saying that as well. Katie Yeah I think that accessibility thing is such an important point as well. Like I think my first exposure to economics was when I did history gcse and we learned about the wall street crash and I didn't really understand what stocks and shares were to start with and I also just find it baffling that something that's basically made up is able to like absolutely cripple society.Like stocks and shares are made up but somehow they can ruin people's lives. What? Aliyah Yeah, yeah, honestly I think when I first started learning about capitalism I was shocked because I thought: 'wow like there's all of these rules and a lot of these, I guess, scripts and ways that we live that are harmful to the majority of people and we can actually change that because at first before I start learning about capitalism I thought oh no like you know this is the way things are and it has to be that way for a reason and then you know when you start learning, it's like: 'No. That could actually be different'. And also that could actually change to. And then also like this whole money stuff. Is it even real? Like you said Katit, So so much of it is just made up in someone else's imagination and it's not serving most of us. Grace And it's real in the sense of like and you know we do have to live in like the system that we're in and the consequences of the sort of rules of that system like impact our daily lives. But yeah, yeah, you're so right like this is not like the only way and a lot of this is you know there have been decisions made about what is important, what is valuable, how we interact with each other, how we interact with our natural environment. And those set of rules, you know, which maybe we can term capitalism or maybe actually we need you know something else because again this is like complex stuff. And even beyond kind of western countries, western cultures, you know there are so many alternative economic systems and practices. For example, within present communities and the way they kind of exchange goods and services. So actually you know, um, that's interesting to tap into and explore it's not that necessarily alternative economic thinkers and people interested in this are unearthing new ideas. Part of it is just getting in touch with and honoring and listening to culturess and communities who have been doing this stuff for you know generations but you know we all live in the Uk. We happen to be um, you know, situated in this very dominant western, capitalist space. Aliyah Yeah, and actually a lot of the um alternative economic theories that are becoming popularized are based on indigenous wisdom. Either like explicitly or it's like it's not actually new, it's been done before but now it's like we're trying to bring it back to this country in this space presently. Katie Okay, yeah, that's interesting. That's not something I really know that much about of kind of like yeah alternative non-western ways of doing things. Grace But I mean even just to jump in there. kind of even Degrowth. So Degrowth is kind of a concept that, if I'm right in thinking we may have to fact check this, you know did develop out of like Western academia. And so it's an anti-capitalist economic theory and the main idea behind it is you know, removing economic growth as a policy objective and prioritizing social and environmental wellbeing. Um I mean that sounds pretty radical when you kind of remove gdp growth out of the picture as like a measure of economic success and societal Well-being. But actually I think when you um, maybe kind of think about a lot of indigenous societies, you know, ways of operating and cultures you kind of realise this isn't that radical. You know like it's radical for the system that we're in. But this stuff isn't new and it's definitely not. Like degrowth brings some new ideas, that as you say Aliyah, like it's drawing on stuff which is not new at all and actually yeah, it's almost in a way I Wonder if it's kind of returning returning with a new lens and a new focus on you know ideas which have like a rich history. Um, and you know find their expression all sorts of ways all across the world. Katie You have mentioned degrowth there as an example. I was just wondering if you could define degrowth for people who might not have come across that term before. Grace So yeah, so according to, I'm actually going to read. So This is from the degrowth kind of website which says that degrowthth is an idea that critiques the global capitalist system which pursues growth at all costs and instead it's a movement that advocates societies and that prioritizes social and ecological wellbeing instead of corporate profits over production and excess consumption. So it's about the transformation of societies towards social and environmental justice and a shift away from growth as like the primary goal. And just critiquing and calling out a global capitalist system which is really destructive. 28:06.60 Aliyah I would add that the more I've researched about degrowth. Although it's called degrowth, it's not about everything not growing. Like the things that, there are things that we need that. Yeah, we need more of maybe like jobs in the care sector and stuff like that. And then there's obviously things that we want to stop growing um in order to solve the issues that we're facing um and I would just put a bit a little bit of a disclaimer out there I think if people are interested in that. Probably when they start me researching they'll probably see that it's kind of like, I don't know if I would say controversial term that's used in the space. But there's, I would say like everyone agrees with the ideas behind degrowth. But some people just don't use that term Degrowth because they think it's um, misleading because it's not about everything not growing. Um, but yeah, the principles behind what that term stands for I think most people agree with that. Katie Yeah, okay, that's quite a helpful clarification. Um, and in terms of some of the other the other concepts we've mentioned um, would you be able to talk a bit about some of the other ideas that are out there, things like circular economy doughnut economics, green new Deal, those kind of things. if you could maybe explain those in a bit more detail and how they can transform the way we do things. Aliyah Yeah, um, and I just want to say like, like all of these ideas are, even though they have their own distinct names they're all connected um in some way, so it's not like you know it's like all of that stuff needs to happen and it's all overlapping anyway. It's not just like this category and that category. But um to explain more about what did we say? Okay so about circular Economics That's ah um, the idea of eliminating,well trying to eliminate waste as an idea, like not even seeing waste as an option. Um, so I mean it's in the name but making the life cycle of products a circle, you know? So it's not like you produce it and then. What is it called? oh yeah, so to change it from a linear model where it's like produced and then it turns into waste and full stop, into a circular model so things are recycled or upcycled or composted and also things when they're made at the started are made in a way so they don't become waste. Um, you know and a made in a way where it's easy to fix them. So if they break you can keep it and just repair it. And I would also say circular economy is also about regenerative practices. So if I give an example of farming, I'm going to like really simplify it, but like instead of if you have a farm and you're really farming harshly and in a way that's not in tune with what the earth needs and you're extracting all of the nutrients from the soil or whatever that's like extractive and it's not going to be able to sustain but then a regenerative way would be like um maybe you give the soil nourishment back and things that you're taking from the Earth but it's also being replaced so it can be maintained so it's about trying to make practices regenerative um in all sectors as well. Katie Yeah I think circular economy is one of the ones that I hear people talking about at work. I work in engineering and I feel like circular economy is one that like has caught people's attention possibly more so than some of the other ideas. But I think it's one. That's really difficult to do in practice depending on which sector you're in. Like electronics is so so difficult because you've got like um if you think about like a laptop or a phone. You've got like you know up to like 50 plus minerals in like 1 tiny little phone and it's like really difficult to extract all that for reuse at the end of life. So yeah, there's people like the fair phone and Ellen Macarthur Foundation, stuff like that working on that. But yeah, it's a really interesting challenge for engineers. Aliyah I can't even imagine. Like I don't know anything about the technology or you know that level what needs to be done with. in terms to actually achieve a circular economy. but I think people it's when you're first saying about alternative economics it's one of the easier ideas to understand because it's really like you know everyone's recycled, so we know what that looks like we can imagine what it looks like for a thing to be recycled. I think it's a good um, starting point for people that are like just learning about alternative economic ideas. Grace Um, and even the I mean I'm pretty sure everyone's come across the whole reduced reuse Recycle. You know that's the principles of a circular economy which have been kind of turned into a campaign. I think has the government even adopted that? You know, so yeah, that feels a bit more mainstream. whereas degrowth, obviously, is a lot more radical and I think um, yeah, as you said Aliyah I think you know with ideas like that the kind of principles of social environmental well-being I think a lot of people can get behind but in terms of actually this idea of reducing a focus on growth and kind of what the economy should look like that's way out there it feels like for a lot of people and governments and organizations as well. Whereas yes, like circular economy feels a bit more mainstream. Aliyah Yeah, and yeah, and just like easier to imagine because then if you're thinking about um now doughnut economics, I think it takes a bit more effort to think what will that look like in practice, like you have to use your imagination a bit more. Um, and to give a bit more of an explanation of my understanding of doughnut economics it's ah like if you literally imagine a doughnut and then on the inside, and then basically everybody's trying to live literally on the doughnut. This would be so much easier if you could see. Grace Make everyone on the podcast hungry. Katie So yeah, really recommend going to the donut economics website where they've got some really nice diagrams but please please continue explaining. Aliyah Yeah yes yeah I'm but before you do that You can just listen to my terrible explanation but um, yeah, and then on the inside would be all of the, what is it could like social things that, things that people, we need to survive. So on the inside it would be like energy, food water stuff like that. Um, and we're not trying to fall below that um level everybody needs to have that stuff. Grace I think they call it the social foundation. Aliyah Social foundation. But thank you So we're not trying to fall below the social foundation and then on the outside of the doughnut, you have all of the um, what is it called ecological? Grace Ecological ceiling I think. Aliyah Thank you, Ecological ceiling. So and then you'll have things listed there like um, climate change, air pollution, Chemical pollution. Um, and we're not trying to exceed the um ceilings in those sections. I mean even though some people would say like we've already exceeded some of this ceilings. But then it's like what do we do next? So Let's not even think that right now but we're trying to live within the doughnut. Um, and another thing I would say about all of these ideas like grace you kind of said, they're all about social and environmental well-being so looking after all forms of life and the planet and it's just these ah different ideas and methods of how we can achieve that, you know, they all have the same principles or ideas in mind. Grace Yeah,, there's so much intersectionality and and even with like the doughnut. Um, you know within the social Foundation, social equity, gender equality, and peace and justice are 3 of those things. So you that you know and in this model we need for a social foundation like for a good,for social flourishing. Um, and I think that's quite a consistent theme across a lot of these more radical economic ideas and practices is that it's good for the planet and it's good for people. But it's also thinking kind of intersectionally is it good for everyone? Not just for um you know being, you know if we're if we're honest, our current economic systems were designed by and for white middle class men and its so thinking about in terms of alternative practices and theories,when we talk about a social benefit that that is genuinely a social benefit for all rather than quite a select class of people. Katie Yeah I think that's ah, a really good point. Um, and yeah, just talk about doughnut economics a tiny bit more, because that's like the only economics book I've ever actually read because it's about how to do economics differently. I can't engage with like normal economics. But I'm interested in how can we do it differently. Grace That's very fair. 38:08.35 ukycc And yeah, and like that book I do really recommend it because it's got lots of helpful diagrams and it's very like it clearly outlines some of the problems with the current system and then is like here's the other way of framing it and I think the one that's just popped into my head when you were talking about economic systems being designed by and for rich white men. It's like um this idea in traditional economics of people within the economy being like rational actors and that kind of idea of rationality being something that we we want to have as like a masculine trait and being rational is like the best way of doing things when that's not actually what it means to be human, like people even men don't behave in a rational way right? I certainly don't all the time sometimes I'm rational but sometimes I'm very irrational and that's true of everyone. Um, yeah and I think yeah, it's not a one size fits or I think is like yeah one of the problems with the traditional approaches. Grace Oh totally and I think um, you know I'd say I am did an economics A level and I can remember in our first or second lesson and we were doing some classical economics. So like looking at thinkers like Adam Smith. He was sort of 1 of the founders of kind of neoclassical economics which um and you know yeah this focus on kind of ah, a rational economic agent who is very individualist minded and is seeking always the pursuit of um, you know what's going to be best for them as an individual. And so there's a quote and I'm I'm just trying to find it because I think it sums it up really nicely and this kind of perspective that we are kind of locked into in our current economic system. Here it is. It's a quote from Adam Smith and then he says you know 'It's not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from the regard for their own self-interest.' So basically saying we've got to assume everyone's just in it for their own self-interest and that's the only reason why they'd kind of want to provide a good or service and then when we're buying that The only reason we're buying their good or service is for our own benefit and and that is like a massive underpinning logic for our economic system. But if we're all honest, that's not as you say Katie, that's not how we operate. We're not rational people who only think as individuals and, you know, and I think unfortunately, our society is super individualist that you know that's a massive problem. But um, if we're honest, that's not really how life works and we do irrational things and we do things you know which aren't in our best self-terest for the people that we love and the people in our community all the time. So yeah, there's that kind of like model of thinking that um you know we just need I think partly just to a clock that. And I think as we've already kind of said a lot of our economic system is underpinned by myths and so it's thinking kind of what actually do we want our economic system to be Underpinned by? Do we want it to be by collective care and solidarity and flourishing and joy and creativity instead of kind of a rational individualist logic which this views like self-interest and profit? And I mean when I come compare those 2 things. Like I don't not try and say that it's easy necessarily to get there, to switch from one to the other, but I definitely know which camp I want to be in. Aliyah Yeah I can yeah like I definitely remember a point in my life where I thought that like humans as a species are inherently selfish. And then you actively have to be you know, kind of try to change your nature and be giving and share and look after people but like that's you actively going against your nature. And when I look back I wonder why did I think that. But obviously it's just like, must have been what I've picked up through media and just like that's what we've been taught, you know like with things of ideas of like survival of the fittist, like you know, the fitest people survive and everyone's um, out for themselves. But the more I speak to people and read and learn that changed and I started to think that no like is actually in our nature to like, we're inherently caring and we rely on each other, and we look after each other. But it's just that the systems that are there like capitalism have forced all of us to be more selfish or whatever it is so we can survive but that's not actually like the human nature. We're not just inherently bad. Um, they are so I like that question you ask. I definitely want to be on the collective care side. Grace And and I think maybe like it's I think it's really good. Maybe this a good moment to kind of mention as well like our economic system is so hugely complex and is so opaque as well. We don't really know what's happening. I mean the world of economics is kind of the average individual think its made deliberately opaque a lot of the time and and it's super encompassing as well like there isn't really a collective memory of what it means to live outside of capitalism in Western cultures which can make it really hard to, which means that you know yeah you know we are um, we like behave and respond to kind of the logic of the system and like what you know society, whether it's through the media or whether it's kind of even navigating like the housing market or the job market and things like that, we kind of learn rules and ways of interacting. But yeah as you're saying Aliyah, maybe there's a way to kind of, there is a way to do things differently and if we can tap into that, Um you know, I think that has so much exciting potential for us as individuals for us as communities and societies. But it does feel so encompassing. Um, so I guess I don't think any of us are under any illusion that this is like easy or straightforward to kind of just get rid of capitalism. Katie Not going to get it done this week. Yeah no it's it's not, it's not an overnight solution is it. And it's one of those things that can be quite overwhelming when you think about like the scale of wealth, the scale of climate change and the scale of like economic issues and stuff like that. Um, but I guess one way that we can engage with this issue is through smaller campaigns which I think is brings me on to talk about your campaign: It's Just Economics. So Can you please provide an overview of the project and let us know a bit about what's, what's the goal? What we aiming for? What we doing? Aliyah Yeah oh let's talk about it. I mean if you're just listening to the podcast now then the campaign hasn't um, happened so you can still sign up for everything we're talking about. I mean if it's after it's already happened then maybe we're doing it again and you can sign up too. But um to tell you what is actually about. So our campaign is called: 'It's Just Economics' and we called it that kind of touching on what Grace said. We wanted to have a title that showed that it's just Economics you know? Like it's been made to seem really complex and really professionalized and that you can't talk about this or you shouldn't talk about this unless you have an economics degree and you're, I don't know, an expert in the field or whatever. But no, it's just economics, you know and everybody is affected by it and everyone can share their opinions um about it. And we also called it: It's just Economics. It's short for Justice. You know, um because economics and our economic systems need to um, be just and and looking after people which they're not really doing at the moment. So those were like the two things that we thought yeah that actually represents what we're standing for. But um to go on to tell you what we're actually doing. Do you want to go Grace? Grace Yeah, so um, yeah, our campaign is really looking to like address what we felt was a bit of a gap between quite disenfranchised young people in the UK who might think: 'Ah, capitalism is you know rubbish' or might even not know or label it as capitalism, that think 'Why is it so hard for me to rent a place?' or you know 'My job doesn't pay me enough and I can't you know I have to work so hard and you know just to like make ends meet'. Or maybe that it's like they feel really you know lonely and actually isolated and you know in this like really individualist society and can see a climate breakdown happening all around them. Um, so you know we felt like there was a real gap between like young people feeling and experiencing all of this stuff and the awesome and incredible, exciting creativity of like academics and other organizations and groups who are like doing this amazing stuff in this like alternative economic space. And so our campaign is like a small effort to try and bridge that gap between disenfranchised young people and, or not even disenfranchised, just sort of people who like are fed up with the current system, but aren't aware necessarily or kind of that linked up with alternative economic ideas and practices. And so we're going to be running workshops. That's the idea is that we run a series of workshops which basically follow the model of, I don't know if you've come across it before, but it's the idea of kind of head heart and hands. So like head: we think and we learn first. And then the heart: like we want to imagine as well and not just kind of like educate ourselves but like imagine what a better future would like and sort of exercise that imaginatory muscle. I don't know if that's a word imaginatory? but kind of yeah, like think about alternatives outside of capitalalism because it's so hard to do that and and kind of quite practically think about what an alternative economic future could look like. But hands, like the last 1 act. So we want to you know get people really linked up with um existing campaigns but also give them a space to connect with other people and start and putting the stuff into practice. Aliyah I don't know if you want to talk a bit about um our pilot? Aliyah Yeah, so in our pilot of this campaign we're going to hold 1 education session, 1 imagination session and 1 action session. Like I said if you're listening to this before we've done it sign up if you're in London or if you can make it to London. The sessions are going to be happening in Camden in March. Um, I'm sure we'll probably put the sign up form in the notes if we can do that Katie? Katie Yeah, definitely. Aliyah Yeah, we'll do that, cool. Um, yeah, and we're going to get speakers who are in this, working in this field who know about different alternative economic ideas who are like actively doing work to make those things become a real thing in this life, in this world. Um, we're going to get people from different campaign groups. But honestly, we just, we want people I mean who are just interested. You don't need to know anything, just have that feeling that, you know, something feels wrong or capitalism sucks. Um, and then come and learn and connect with other people who feel the same way. Katie And this all sounds very exciting. I wish that I lived in London but yeah, definitely. Grace Well also also really good point. You know for anyone listening if you're like 'oh I would love to have it's just economics come to my area and run some workshops', like get in touch, reach out on the UKYCC socials, like we would love to know so that you know, we want to go where people want to hear about this stuff so, reach out. Katie Yeah I mean like thinking of kind of feeling like the system sucks I would say our system in the Uk is very London Centric. No offense people based in London but um, yeah, like if you look at the recent like cancellation of HS2 and just like just chronic underfunding of the north like yeah I would say I would say other parts of the Uk need this to. Aliyah No I agree. we need to go on tour. Katie Yeah, but you got to start somewhere and we're starting in London. That sounds really good and I feel like it it brings me on to the final question and that I was always to ask. Today you guys are giving me hope because this sounds cool and fun and inspiring. But what gives you you guys hope because we talk about a lot of heavy things on this podcast where we're thinking about climate change and how it's ruining the world. So yeah, what gives you hope? Aliyah For me things, Yeah same as you Katie, things like this and being around people who care about stuff, who care about like solving environmental issues or you know just care. It doesn't even have to be about environmental stuff but you care because that makes me feel like and I don't know like even if the project that we're doing doesn't have the impact that we want it to have ah like all of us who are doing it will still care and that energy like will always be there. So I feel like I don't even know how to put what I'm feeling in to words, but like if the care remains you know, then there's always going to be hope. Because even if something it doesn't work we're still going to be here caring I mean and then hopefully the next generation they'll still be here caring and it will go on on and on and on until um, hopefully whatever like plan comes to fruition. Katie And yeah I love that I find like yeah working with people who are passionate about it doesn't have to be the same things as me but working with people who are passionate about what they do is yeah something that always gives me energy as well and Grace what gives you hope? Grace Aliyah, that's so beautiful I'm gonna be thinking about that for the rest of the week so thank you. Yeah I think um, it can definitely be really, It can get you down I think campaigning around this stuff and thinking about, you know, the more we learn about how screwed up our systems are and how entrenched they are can, it can be really tricky but I think what gives me hope is you know while acknowledging it might be really hard to transition to a different way of doing things, I'm quite excited about instead of that being a really painful and hard thing to do,how can we make this transition to a different world and a different way of doing things like really fun and where there's loads of like creativity and connection and joy and community. You know how can we bring change in our society in a really like nurturing way like what can we, What can we add in as well as like what do we need to take away. So I think what gives me hope is connecting up with people and just exploring where where that's beginning to happen and people are beginning to unlock their beautiful creative brains to think like let's do something different. Um, and yeah I guess I fell really excited to maybe be a part of that in some small way and and for this campaign to and fit in as well. Um, so yeah I guess to anybody who's wanting to attend or thinking about coming along to and an it's just economics Workshop. Yeah, if you've got that spark in you that is looking for like creativity and joy and you know actually like dreaming and plotting and scheming for a better future like that is what we're wanting to do so come and join in the fun. Katie I Love that. Yes, yes, the climate movement is a fun place and we should have more fun all the time. And yeah I love that kind of yeah tapping into people's creativity that was that was a beautiful speech. Thank you. Grace I'll get off the soap box now. Katie Yeah, thank you both so much for your time and for sharing all of your knowledge that you've learned from this campaign and um, yeah I'm excited to see how it goes. Aliyah And ah thank you for having us. Grace And thanks Katie. Katie Thanks for listening to From the Ground Up, a podcast by the UK Youth Climate Coalition. Our guests today were form the UKYCC's systems change team's It's Just Economics campaign. Your host today was Katie and our music is by Nick Battle. To learn more about our work on alternative economics and other topics, follow us on social media, or go to ukyyc.com. check out the list in the show notes for organisations to follow and books to read to learn more about alternative economics and the things we tlaked about today.